-------- Creation and Innovation in the World of Drumming

**McKenzie** · May 18th, 2005, 05:38 PM

Do we interpret INNOVATOR as someone who physically establishes an idea sparked in the imagination that has never been physically done before even though it has been thought of or merely taking already established concepts and expanding them. Vinnie definitely took already established concepts and stretched them BIG TIME! beyond what was there before no doubt about that. He blew some doors down for sure. His phrasing was the one thing that REALLY stood out. Did he create a whole new palet not sure??

Virg did the same even in the early 90's and still does today no doubt about that regardless of whether he is as well liked as Vinnie. I could say Virg did innovate with the feet and not just in the usage of the kick's but took the rudimental priciples for the top and applied them with speed, power and creativity to the bottom as no one before. I believe he brought a command to the top and bottom end combined as not seen before. He lit the fire in Lang to push himself this way.

And as far as concepts polyrhythmically - the idea of layering multiple rhythms simultaneously he (Virg) surely was even many years ago and is still today stretching previous boundaries, I believe he sparked the fire in guy's like Marco to push themselves in these areas also. I will give alot of credit to Mangini in the area of stretching polyrhythmic concepts in his own distinctive way and in the the meaning of being truly ambidextrous.

**Andy Edwards** · May 18th, 2005, 07:02 PM

I'm pretty sure VC was the first guy that improvised using polyrythmns in the way he did. Yes, he got it from Tony and Elvin (and to a certain extent Alphonse M and Jack de Johnette) but the way Vinnie played them (esp on SUAPYG) was highly original and influenced a whole generation.

Also, I think the concept of 'great art has to innovate' is questionable.

When we look back on great pieces of art it is easy to see them as the beginning of a new era when infact they are more like a summation of what has gone before.

**benrand** · May 18th, 2005, 07:06 PM

I dunno, Ralph Humphrey was a badass wrt odd times and he played some real out stuff with FZ that was filled with odd times and powerful playing.

cjbdrm · May 18th, 2005, 07:24 PM

Was he criticizing you for not being innovative?

I don't get his point. Your job is to make the music feel good. Does the listening audience or bandleader care that you're not being "innovative".

As far as Vinnie goes, he has his own VOICE. So do all my favorite drummers and musicians. Only a handful could be called "innovative" but I don't care- they're still unique.

Thre's something else going on here. Sounds like either he's the kind of guy who's afraid to give a compliment because he's insecure about his own playing or he felt you were overconfident and wanted to bring you down a few notches. Mentors will do that...

**CLWarunki** · May 18th, 2005, 09:41 PM

Originally posted by cjbdrm:
Was he criticizing you for not being innovative?

I don't get his point. Your job is to make the music feel good. Does the listening audience or bandleader care that you're not being "innovative".

As far as Vinnie goes, he has his own VOICE. So do all my favorite drummers and musicians. Only a handful could be called "innovative" but I don't care- they're still unique.

Thre's something else going on here. Sounds like either he's the kind of guy who's afraid to give a compliment because he's insecure about his own playing or he felt you were overconfident and wanted to bring you down a few notches. Mentors will do that...

No, no no... I guess I gave the wrong impression because he really was pleased and full of compliments about my drumming and the show... but we were talking about great drummers and then innovation came up after he mentioned Phil Collins as his fave drummer. He tends to get very philosophical about things and he just stressed the importance of innovation... not to address me personally, but in general really.

I don't remember if he said Phil Collins was innovative, but now that I think about it maybe he was.

**troutbrooke** · May 18th, 2005, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by CLWarunki:
I don't remember if he said Phil Collins was innovative, but now that I think about it maybe he was.

Phil did that first Peter Gabriel record where he created that gated drum sound. I think he did some stuff with no cymbals too on that record. I love Phil's drumming. His playing on Nursery Cryme is great especially - with a small 4-piece Gretsch kit.

**Clintuplet** · May 18th, 2005, 11:25 PM

Hmmm...in the past couple of weeks or so, we've learned that Vinnie is not a jazz drummer and he's not innovative. (tongue of course firmly planted in cheek)

This may be a bitter pill to swallow but I'm of the opinion that Vinnie's playing and musical ability may in some way overshadow the innovative players that he has taken from. While he has taken things from Gadd, Williams, Chaffee and others so much, Vinnie has refined, defined and redesigned the way we, especially at this forum hear drumming, creating a focus and a respect towards the drums that is on the same level as any other musical instrument. Tony set out to do the same thing. I think Vinnie has carried it further.
Having such an awesome command of the instrument and such a high level of musicianship; being a filter for so many amazing and ever changing ideas and applications of those ideas, I think that makes Vinnie, by definition, (the act of introducing something new) innovative.

[ May 18, 2005 11:25 PM: Message edited by: Clintuplet ]

**got_a_matchgrip** · May 19th, 2005, 03:09 AM

I don't know why I'm posting here; can't help m'self i suppose [img]wink.gif[/img] ,

- but, I have to disagree w the fact that VC is not a true innovator.

Quite the contrary, & anyone who has listened to FZ's SUNPYG, Joe's Garage, Tinseltown Rebellion, Tooch's 1st solo record & Sketchbook, AH's Secrets, Wardenclyffe Tower [Against the Clock], the Stern/Childs stuff, Marienthal's Crossroads, Waldman discs, BRMSC2 DCI vid[!], MDF '00 DVD, Karizma-Document, JRichman disc, Suzanne Dean's Dreams Come True [Rhythm River], or JBeal's 3 Graces, or has seen him in clinic, esp w a bassist, would tell you differently...but he did take from what was done b4 to new & incredible levels, & made it his own, in turn innovating it & "putting his unique, individual stamp" on the way things can be/are done.

4get the pop stuff; altho he's great at it AW [Sting, Vanelli, even FHill, etc etc], all awesome work, you still really have to check those discs i just mentioned to hear the REAL DEAL.

With the exception of hearing the Tony influence [& a little Gadd, perhaps, none of us can help that [img]wink.gif[/img] ], he himself took Tony so far beyond that it's frightening, & it in turn became his own...even Tony or Gadd themselves couldn't dream up some of the stuff VC pulls out of his hat at any given moment; & I love Tony [AWA Gadd!], as do we all, & so did Vinnie...sorry, but that's the God's honest truth [as i see it]... /;c)

Now, go back & do that, & tell me again that he's "not one of the true innovators & pioneers"...BLA-HAHAHAHA... [img]wink.gif[/img] [Rubs hands together fiendishly] j/k

If VIRGIL is in there [& def RIGHTLY so], then so SURELY Vinnie must be AW...

Jes my 2 [against 3, against 4...against 27...against Chicago...25 or 6-2-4...]

[ May 18, 2005 02:53 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]